Monday, 16 October 2017

History of Karuppar

  

Karuppaswamy as a deity is stealing the limelight on the contemporary. His popularity is rising as we speak and people of different ethnicities around the globe have started to worship Him.

Video: Karuppar saves Her life

So let's look into the 'morphological' aspects of this deity.We start with Shri Karuppar.

Shri Karuppar, Karuppanaswamy or Karuppaswamy ( all three terminologies denote the same deity ) is the prototype of the Karrupar vamsam or lineage. This means that there are many other individualized consciousness or identities of Karuppar along the line after Shri Karuppar.


Shri Karuppar is described as a fierce-looking warrior, who is :

(1) dark in colour ( depicted blue)
(2) handsomely moustached
(3) adorned with tirunaamam ( vaishnavite tilak)
(4) holding a machete or sword ( aruval ) and
(5) riding a white horse

These are the standard features of Shri Karuppar or the prototype Karuppar.

The widely-accepted legend behind Shri Karuppar dates back to the period of Ramayana.


Kusha, brother of Lava who is the child of Shri Rama is said to be Karuppar.

When Mother Sita was sent to exile in the forest, she delivered a son - Lava. Once, Mother Sita left Lava to be daycared by Sage Valmiki in her absence. The sage slipped into meditation and found Lava missing when he came back to his senses. To handle this emergency, Sage Valmiki created a look-alike child using darbha grass to replace the missing Lava - which he felt responsible for.

However, the real Lava kiddo was actually safe with his mother. Perhaps he found his way to Mother Sita when his babysitter went into meditation. Upon mother Sita's meetup with the sage, she found this darbha-made child. So two children who looked alike! A situation arose where they were unable to differentiate the real Lava from the darbha-born child ( Kusha).

In order to differentiate the children, they were asked to walk through a fire test. Lava braves it unhurt while Kusha gets somewhat charred into a dark-skinned child. Later,Shri Rama blesses Kusha to be His guardian deity.

The narrative above is presented with slight variations across the nation but they essentially centralise on Kusha being Karuppar.

Kusha in Samskrta refers to darbha grass. In many Karuppar temples, notably the famous 18-am padi Karuppar of Azhagar Temple, Madurai, the dhyana shloka ( invocation prayer describing the deity to be meditated upon) sung in Tamizh addresses the deity as ' He who is born out of darbha' ( darbhaiyil piranthavane ).



Karuppaswamy's tilak ( forehead marking) indicates a Vaishnavite relation too.


There is also a significant parallel between Lord Kalki and Karuppanaswamy. Kalki is considered to be the 10th avatara of Mahavishnu.

Karuppanaswamy

Lord Kalki

Other Karuppars along the line

Shri Karuppar, as mentioned earlier, is the prototype in the Karuppar system. There are other forms of Karuppar.They have their own name, feature, history and traits.

Many have confusion regarding this.They confuse other forms of Karrupar and associate them with Shri Karuppar. There are 108 identities recognised - with 18 being prominent.

            108 names of Karuppar

  Sangilli Karuppar



Sangili Karuppar is one of the most well-known identities among the 108 Karuppars. His history dates back to the era when Madurai was ruled by Tirumalai Naicker ( 1623 - 1659 AD ). He was the leader of the Piranmalai Kallars ( Kallars of the forest region ). Madurai Veeran, another well-known guardian deity co-existed with Sangili Karuppar. They were apparently rivals, as the former was under the king while the latter, Sangili was a robin hood.


If you notice the features of Sangili, He is different from Shri Karuppar. Sangili does not wield a machete ( aruval ) or sword,albeit being considered as an important insignia of Karuppar worship. He wields a spear instead and is wrapped with chain.

 18 aam padi Karrupar


Another famous form of Karuppar.Also known as Malayala Karuppu. Legends say that Malayala Karuppu appeared to the priests who protected the temple in the form of a pitch-black warrior with matted locks, wielding a long sword . He promised to guard Azhagar temple. 


Similarly, there are other unique forms of Karuppar, such as Periya Karuppu, Chinna Karuppu, Nondi Karuppu etc 

In different cultures, the deity is coined with a different term. For example, Karuppar is known as Bhootaraja in Shri Lanka.

Ultimately, they all express the same energy. They respond fast to one's prayer, protect dharma ( righteousness ), safeguard justice and control time. In other words, they are the folk forms of Kala Bhairava ( fierce aspect of Lord Shiva )

Karuppars are associated with both Shaivism and Vaishnavism.He is also seen as the fierce aspect of Vishnu ( eg. Lord Nrsimha ).You can access Karuppar even if you associate Him with Vishnu-tattva.


Picture above : The Ashta Bhairava system. We can see the parallel of Karuppar system to that of the Bhairava system. The picture depicts the Ashta-Bhairavas - eight expressions of Bhairava, head by Kala Bhairava ( illustrated centrally in diagram ) - who is the standard form of Bhairava ( like how Shri Karuppar is the standard in the Karuppar system ).


Note that each of the Bhairava is unique in their own way. They have their own vahana ( vehicle), attributes and form.60 more forms of Bhairava-s branch from these Ashta-Bhairavas. So that totals to 68 forms of Bhairava excluding the prototype Kala Bhairava. Apply the same principle to Karuppar system to get a clearer picture.
  

This is the form of Suvarna-Akshara Bhairava. He does not have a fierce form as how we would expect a Bhairava to be. He sits with His consort and blesses devotees with wealth. A form of Bhairava who gives wealth. Heard of it? Yes, He exists.

Over a cup of coffee talk...

Whichever form of Karuppar you worship, worship them with the adhered protocol. If you are going into rituals, it may be better to learn up about the forms properly. For example, the shrine of Sangili Karuppar must have a chain. An aruval ( bill-hooked machete ) may not be favourable or even necessary in a Sangli shrine. On the other hand,18am padi Karuppar's primary worship is that of in a form of an aruval.

Bill-hooked machete is an insignia of Karuppar

         

Also Read : 

(1) Karuppar Mantra

(2) Quickest and Guaranteed way to Access Karuppar 

(3) Karuppar reference in Yajur Veda

58 comments:

  1. Replies
    1. Swami ayappans 18 steps...he is somehow like a guard there...

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  2. Can i know mantra for sangili karupar..please advice

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    1. I have linked 'Karuppar mantra' at the end of the aritcle above.Look there.tq

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  3. Hi. There are 18 of them in the Karuppar lineage. The prime of all is the 18am padi Karuppaswamy. The other Karuppars refer to him as 'aasan' or 'easan'. He is a vegetarian. Born to an asuran father and a human mother. Has the qualities of mummoorthigals, and received a boon from Goddess Aathi Parasakthi Herself. He is the other side of the same coin with Malayala Karuppar, who is also a vegetarian. The second in lineage is Santhana Karuppar. The third in line is very fierce and is a non vegetarian. Name is not usually mentioned openly.

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  4. For the most part, I disagree with this writeup. Dravidian Indians originally did not follow Hinduism, they followed tribal practices and it primarily was composed of as ancestral spirit worship. Karuppan or "karuppu samy" in which ever form he is depicted (santhana, sappani, sangili, sonai, etc, etc) was a man from the Kerala region during the Sangam Period. He was a friend/assistant to Ayyanar/Ayyappan and they were legends that helped villages and the poor apparently; eventually these legends became "sub-god" or "kaval deivangal" (Tamil). Many of these "kaval deivams" vary in Tamil Nadu like Madurai veeran, Irulappan (sudalai madan), pavadai rayan, naattu rayan, ponnar & Shankar, karuppan, etc. Back in 1996, a Tamil movie was made by K.V. Pandian known as "Manickam" that starred Rajkiran; this specific movie was a story about how a man "Manickam" (Rajkiran) was a "kaval" for many villages and after his time, he eventually became a "kaval deivam". This has nothing to do with hinduism. If it was even remotely hindu, pigs, goats, chickens, liquor and cigars would not be offered to these deities. Also, even in the sudalai madasamy cult, the samy adi (tranced man) goes on a "vettai" (hunt) to the sudalai (crematory place) and munches on partially burned bodies and bones....how disgusting is that? Not hinduism at all.

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    1. Thank you for the explanation.
      The mode of worship does not define the deities.

      Even some people use gory ways to worship Kali.

      Guardian deity worship can be done in a sattvik manner.For instance, as to how karuppar is being worshiped in Madurai Azhagar temple.

      Guardian deity worship is hinduism done in a folk manner.The essence is the same.

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    2. Vinnith, I understand that, however, in the Azhagar kovil, the pathinettampadiyan that stands guard is Karuppusamy and through the legend rendered by the Azhagar kovil, he is referred as "Malayala Karuppar" as he was one of the 18 bandits that were sent by the Chera King to steal the kovil's murthy. Again, this goes to show the Kerala connection of Karuppan and his role during the time he was alive. Probably in those days, he was a local "robin hood" figure; it is believed that he came from a town in Kerala called "Erumeli". It was King Thirumalai Nayakkar (one who saved Madurai and TN from Mughal/Islamic rule) foiled the plan and made him a guard at the temple to spare his life. Anyway, regardless of the mode of worship or even worship itself, it goes back to the Dravidian practice of ancestral spirit worship. In my view, I don't see Karuppar as a "deivam" of some sort, but more as an ancestral warrior, not different than the Marudhu Pandiyar brothers.

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    3. The state of enlightenment to all is the same.Humans are divine.We are God-consciousness functioning through a human form.At some point of time,we too realise our God-hood.

      Karuppar identities who were once humans attain enlightenment.This is why karuppar is said to be Bhairava ( shiva in a fierce form ).

      We worship Krshna who walked the Earth as human.

      The form does not matter.We only access divinity.

      Folk worship is unique in its own way.

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    4. Maybe so, however, when it comes to the origins of Karuppan, there are so many stories/renditions throughout Tamil Nadu that contradict one another. On one hand, you have a vegetarian Karuppan associated with Vishnu and on the other hand, you have a Karuppan that drinks saaraiyam, smokes suruttu and is offered kozhi and aadu vazhipaadugal. Each area from Trichy to Nellai will have their own version based on their traditions. Based on your logic, I indeed can worship the spirit of my deceased grandfather. This goes back to the original comment - Dravidian ancestral worship that pre-dates Hinduism and is in it's closest form in the Tamil community (which are the most pure Dravidian Indians).

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    5. I have mention the reason for contradiction in the article.. there are many identities of Karuppar along the line after shri Karuppar.

      We have 68 forms of bhairava.. does that mean they contradict one another ?

      Each history is unique to a particular form of Karuppar, but the energy they express is the same.

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    6. Vinnith, then should we start worshipping Marudhu Pandiyar brothers? How about Karikaala Chozhan? Muthuraiyar? Thirumalai Nayakkar? Let's even go further within the Thevar/Kallar community and consider Muthuramalingam Thevar a kaval theivam for their caste? How different is Karuppan from these individuals? As I mentioned, even a 1996 movie "Manickam" illustrates how do-gooders (legends) of the past become these "kaavals" via spirit worship. Even there was talk of making the late forest brigand Veerappan a kaval (yes, local villagers from his area did consider it!)

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    7. As long as they have attained enlightenment,they are fit for worship.

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    8. Vinnith, who and when do we know when a deceased person attains enlightenment? If you look at the history of the Marudhu Pandiyar brothers compared to Karuppan, it seems as if they played a bigger role for the people by fighting for our freedom! Yet they are not placed at that level as "kaval deivams".

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    9. When we connect to a particular identity,we can know if we are sensitive enough.

      As you said,not every dead warrior is worshiped as Karuppar.There must be a strong reason behind why some warriors are worshiped as Bhairava.

      For example,let's look at Madurai Veeran.He was given enlightenment by Miinakshi Devi Herself.That is why people starting to worship Him.

      Eithe ways,at the end of the day,the form and name is secondary.Importantly people are accessing the energy of Kala Bhairava through these folk forms.Some people just prefer it that way - which suits their lifestyle of offering toddy and folk form of worship which may not be feasible in a Vedic temple.

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    10. This was an excellent discussion - enjoyed reading both sides.
      Vinnith - you have thought well before replying, kudos!

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  5. @Anonymous...You got it wrong there bro. Have you spoken to any of the Karuppars before? I suggest you to ask Themselves. There are 18 of them in the lineage. Of them, Pathinettam padi karuppar or i call Him Karuppachan is the prime. The rest calls Him as Aasan or Eesan. He was born on an auspicious day with the qualities of Mummoorthigal, in the present day Sembege Cheri, Kerala. His father is an Assuran and mother a human. Do you want to know his real name? He was named Ayyan on the 28th day. Got His head shaven at 3 years and ears pierced at 5. He mastered the puranas, sasthras, weaponry and martial arts. He defeated the evil maanthrikas or maanthrigavathis which were quite rampant in Kerala. Even till date, no maanthriga kattu can tie Him. Lets not put it to a test. With great pennance and sacrifice, Goddess Aathi Parasakthi appeared and granted boons. Now labelling Him a bandit is uncalled for and a way of belittling Him. So, now tell me, does a bandit gets a blessing from Goddess? Malayala Karuppar is the other side of the same coin of Pathinettam padi Karuppar. They are vegetarian. They uphold dharma and serve justice. I can't blame you as you may not have close contact with such worship or practice. These are tantrik way. And I've no idea where you got the story of Him being a bandit and from Erumeli.

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    1. Hi Satyan Brother. I would like to talk to you personally regarding Appan Karuppan. It would be a great help for me regarding some things im having doubts about. For info im praying to Nondi Karuppan.

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  6. Sathyan, the Erumeli connection is based on the legend from Sabarimalai. Another thing I want to point out, at the 18 steps in Sabarimalai, Karuppan is alongside with Karuppayi Amma - his wife; to this day, I do not know of a single shrine or temple in Tamil Nadu that features Karuppayi Amma or any story of Karuppan having a wife! Also, the story you mentioned is the first I've ever heard, but then again it is one of many. As I mentioned above, the legend/story varies from Chennai to Kanyakumari, that's why you have so many types of Karuppans like Kottai, Sinna, Periya, Santhana, Maligaiparai, Sangili, Sudalai, Sonai, Marnatu, Sappaani, Nondi, Agaaya, Malayala, 18-aam and so on and so on. Referring to him as a bandit is based on the Azhagar Kovil's story of him; the Chera king sent 18 manthravaathigal (one was Karuppan) to steal the murthy, until Thirumalai Nayakkar foiled the plan, slayed 17 of them and made Karuppan a "kaval" for the steps. As I stated in my original argument, I don't see Karuppan any different than Thacholi Othenan, Pazhassi Raja, Karikaala Chozhan, Ponnar & Shankar, Marudhu Pandiyar and other types of kings/warriors.

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  7. @Anonymous.. There you go again. Do not take bits and pieces from everywhere and jump to conclusions. You have not answered my question. Have you spoken to any of the Karuppars before? Like I suggested you do that first. See, that is why I ask you to talk to any Karuppars to get some info and I have done it and thus have first hand information from Him. They will not lie to you and they don't.

    You're partially right about Sabari Karuppan. The Sabari Karuppan is not the prime 18am padiyan. He is 18am padi Sanggili karuppan which is different than the chief/master. I've met Him once. The Keralites refer to Him as Valiya Kaduta swamy. And alongside you also have Kocchu Kaduta swamy. And these deities were not even placed there originally. They only came in later. Are you aware of that?

    Some of the names that you've mentioned are not real names. It was given to refer to their appearance or their place of origin. If I tell you that there are actually 22 Karuppars and 4 were sidelined (othukkapattavargal), you won't believe either. Some of the names given are simply to confuse the maanthrigavaathis as it becomes difficult and complex to tie Karuppars magically.
    Even the Azhagar Kovil story mentions, Malayala karuppar followed the 18 bandits in spirit (as a Kaaval). He is not the bandit. It's as simple as that. Nowhere it's mentioned He is the bandit.

    The story which I told you, is the actual history that took place and depicts the 18am padi Karuppaswamy (Thats the pathavi or status He attained). I have verified this story with Him. We have it in a song manner and recite it during poojas.

    The other reason is not many know the real story as His worship was not in the mainstream. He is mainly worshiped by the villagers, the poor and the aathi vaasis or mala vaasis. He is very much onto the earth plane (dimension closer to us) compared to other deities.

    The vegetarian Karuppan that you are referring to also smokes cigar and drinks kallu. The 18am padiyan doesn't accept the Non vegetarian food but instead calls upon the other Karuppar to accept the padayal. In some places where there is gory forms of worship including drinking of animal blood, have you ever asked the person who is drinking the blood who is He or She? Sometimes, it's not even the deities that is into someone.

    Of course you can also worship your grandfather. Its a show of respect to the pitrukkal or ancestors who may shower their blessings for the family even after death. Maatha, pitha, guru theivam. If you can't show respect to your ancestors, then there is a tendency for you to disrespect the gurus and theivam.

    It doesn't take a mere human to be upgraded to a divine form easily. If your grandfather is dead, and his deeds were good and good karma, he will go to the light. Also bear in mind that it is your Kula devata that accompanies you after the soul departs to take you to the light. If a negative character person dies an unnatural death or with great pain or suffering, the soul most likely assumes a different character and will wander around with negative attributes. So, how come a bandit(negative character) be elevated to be a kaaval/ good spirit or whatever you want to call??? And how come Thirumalai Nayakkar became so powerful as to instruct Karuppan to be a Kaaval even until today? Did Thirumalai Nayakkar elevated Karuppan to be a fearless spirit that guards not only the temple and common people? Is Thirumalai nayakkar a God? Answer these questions.

    Are you from Tamil Nadu, India?

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    1. Yes, I'm a Tamil - Nellai mavattam. Neenga Malayali thaana? Entha ooru? Aamam, naan kaetaen...aanaal, entha pathilum illai. So, I didn't ask anymore - oru thaguthi illai. Thirumalai Nayakkar is not a god, however, don't be surprised if the Rajakambalam Nayakkar community elevates him to a 'kaaval', if they haven't done that already. Your argument is not new to me regarding Karuppan as I've heard various other renditions of his origins. As far as how Keralites refer to him, I completely disagree with your argument. Kadutha Samy was actually a Nair warrior from the "Malamel Veedu" family (Sengannooru/Aranmulai area); if he is the same as Karuppan, why is he on the other side of the 18 steps? On the left side of the steps there is Kadutha Samy with a villu (bow) and on the right side there is Karuppasamy with Karuppayi Amma (both as 18-aam kaavals). So that is Sabarimalai right? Now let's go to another famous Kerala Ayyapan temple in Achankovil known as the Sree Dharmasastha temple. It is one of the famous 108 Saastha-Alayams, that many pilgrims visit and guess what? Ayyappan is seated with 2 wives - Poorna and Pushkala! Guess what? Famous Tamil kaval deivam Ayyanar has two wives - Poorna & Pushkala! Also, the Achankovil Dharmasastha temple also has a sannidhanam for Karuppasamy! So who is Ayyan? Ayyan is both Ayyappan and Ayyanar! Same exact person. Most Ayyanar shrines have Karuppan as an attendant with him! Ancient warriors, whose legendary stories prompted the locals to worship their spirits and make them as sub-deities. After years of researching this subject and learning about the history of South India (especially Tamil Nadu and Kerala), I've come to understand that Ayyan and Karuppan emerged during the Sangam age from the present-day Kerala region and at that time, the language spoken there was Sen-Thamizh. How Ayyan became "Harihara puthran"? Local Namboodiri & Nair hindus (origins from north India) absorbed him into the tantric-hindu faith they brought to the Malai Naadu (Kerala) region, but at the end of the day, they are none other than Ayyan and Karuppan, two warrior friends from Kerala during the Sangam period. As far as Thirumalai Nayakkar and Karuppan, you have to ask the attendants of the Azhagar kovil, that's the story they gave.

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    2. Yes. I'm Malayalee. My native is from Thrisur, Kerala but I'm born and brought up in Malaysia. Yaarukku thaguthi illai? Sometimes, They will know your intention in asking the questions itself and hence wish not to answer you.

      This is rather funny and amusing. You want to know about someone but yet instead of knocking that person's door you knock on all his neighbors doors and ask them how is that other person. So you will only here different tales from different person.

      In my experience over 40 years there is simply too much to share over a blog. But let me share some of my spiritual life experience especially when it comes to Karuppaswamy.

      1) He is certainly not a bandit. Please digest and register this in your memory.
      2) There are 18 Karuppars... not the 18 bandits that went to steal the Azhagar statue...By the way, I don't have to believe the attendant at Azhagar kovil when I have FIRST HAND INFORMATION FROM 18AM PADI KARUPPASWAMY (not sure which part of this you don't understand)... I'll brief in a moment
      3)He is extremely powerful that some other deities are captured and punished if they were to break the rules - a task given by Mother Aathi Parasakthi
      4) His birth name is Ayyan.. 18am padi Karuppar is the pathavi that He attained. You don't have to confuse with Ayyan of Ayyanar or Ayyappan.
      5) If His father is an asuran who dwelled the earth, then you could just imagine how old is He.

      Now let me share something I've never shared to anyone online. Some of the words and sentences are the exact word from the Master Lord 18am Padi Karuppswamy. No masala added. Sometimes I don't understand certain things as it's a mixture of Malayalam and Tamil. And sometimes, it's the other karuppars that comes.

      My late grandfather was a very pious person. Came to then Malaya in 1908 when he was 10 years old. My grandfather brought along Him. "Ninde muuthachan oruvane yemmai ee mannukku alaithu vanthan, vaaku ariyo".
      There are reasons for the Munis and Veerans who came much earlier which we don't have to go into.
      He also mentioned that " Yemmai minjunavan yevenum illai".
      Once He also mentioned that.. "yemmai kaanbathu sulabam alle, oru kollam (1 year), allathu rendu kollam (2 years) yemmai arinthapiragu thaan yemmai kaane mudiyum"

      We sing a song in Malayalam which was written centuries ago about 18am padi Karuppaswamy which narrates His story and He acknowledged it...I repeat, He acknowledged it.

      18am Padi Karuppaswamy is very much sitting in my house, ..literally... There is a siddhar from Tamil Nadu whom we know for more than 10 years, who comes to our house whenever He comes to Malaysia to talk to Him and gets His blessings. According to the siddhar, he has seen only 1 house like this in Tamil Nadu and nowhere else.

      Another experience by a prominent namboori and astrologer from Kerala who does regular deva prakshnam in famous temples. I've known him for more than 7 years now and the first time he saw the astrology, to his shock, he could see that there is an extremely powerful deity guarding my house. You wouldn't believe it,,, he took a flight months later to come and see our Karuppaswamy.

      There are also others like the siddhars in their aatma forms who comes and visit Him. So, with these testimonies and little sharing of my experience, should tell you that I'm not cooking up any story.

      You absolutely have no idea about the 18am padi karuppaswamy.
      I guess I've told enough and the reason for all these sharing is because you accused my favorite deity a bandit which is kinda irritating. When He sees you are prepared and ready, I'll let you know. You can come and ask Him.

      @Vineeth.. how's work bro? In fact I'm in the same profession as you but a specialist already. I'll inform you too when the time comes. Hope this blog is still active then.

      Satyame Jayam.

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    3. Hello Sathyan, Hope all is well with you and your family. I stumbled upon your reply while googling to learn more about Sri Karuppaswamy. I request to get in touch with you, can I please have your email ID? Thank you! Alamelu

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    4. I use to get 18 am padi karuppar trance. He is too powerful. He stands for justice. He only comes when someone is with much problems in life and tells solutions to overcome those problems in life. If we worship him truely, he will protect us at all instance. I have personally experienced it. Health issues will be solved in a giffy if you worship him wholehearted. He is the son of kaliamman. He himself has told at one instance. These all my personal experience with 18 am padi karuppar. What sathyan conveying is all true to my belief.

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  8. Hi Vinnith. My pleasure bro. Also like to credit Sri from Singapore who has done some extensive research on Karuppar. You're doing a wonderful job here. Keep up the great work.

    Satyame Jayam.

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    1. So you're Malayalee, born and brought up in Malaysia? Now it makes all sense. Have you ever been to Tamil Nadu, like traveled to different cities in Tamil Nadu? It's funny, because you're also claiming that there are only 18 karuppans, however, in Tamil Nadu, the belief is that there are 108 forms of karuppan. I know of a man named Mayandi, he's from Theni mavattam and he claims to get the "arul vaakku" from karuppan and his rendition of karuppasamy (maligaiparai) is totally different from yours. Malaysia and Singapore have their own way of Tamil traditions when it comes to beliefs and culture (naturally this happens over time in many communities), it's all similarly linked, but is becoming mutually exclusive in nature over time. As I've mentioned before and I was explaining to Vinnith earlier, this all goes back to the pre-hindu tradition of Dravidian ancestral spirit worship. I've mentioned so many of these like pavadai rayan, ponmudi rayan, naattu rayan, aahaasa rayan, irulappan, Madurai veeran, veriyandi, sudalai madan, sudalai mundan, periyachi, ponnar and Shankar and of course karuppan (sonai, sinna, santhana, sangili, 18-am, etc). You claim you've got the ultimate truth and was spoken to about this from karuppan himself, but Mayandi claims he got the truth but in a totally different rendition compared to yours. If you go to Trichy, there is a Sappaani Karuppu temple and the poosaris and kodangis will swear to you a totally different version of karuppan. It's all relative/subjective.

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  9. You keep getting things very confused Mr Anonymous. Now let's see if this makes more sense. I did my medical studies in India and have traveled to most parts of India including TN. I have relatives in Thrisur, Kanoor, Thrichy and Chennai. I've even stayed in villages in TN. I've been to all the districts in TN except Coimbatore.

    Again, you're adding your own words. I never said it. It was Karuppar Himself. 108 names or forms maybe worshipped but there are only 18 of them. My experience with Santhana Karuppar during a pooja in my house. For your info, Santhana Karuppar is 2nd in the Karuppar lineage. Also a vegetarian. Again, His own words, no masala added.

    Him : Yaam yaarendru ariyumo?
    Myself : Illai
    My father : Illai
    Him : Naan than Santhana Karuppan. Naan perumbalum varuvathillai. Aalayethil kuude yaam vanthu yerenguvathillai. Eesan anippinar, yaam vanthom. Naangel pathinettu sagodhargaleda.
    Then He proceeded with a prayer and blessings.

    So, Santhana Karuppan must have lied to me according to you. Oh my.
    I didn't claim I got the ultimate truth. It was about 18am padi karuppar and I have Him sitting in my house and He told this. It's up to you if you want to believe. Remember, not all souls can be elevated like what you said. The 18am padi karuppar was already a divine entity(as depicted in the song). Of course there can be many different stories as there are 18 of them. All 18 will have a different history. What I told you was about the 18am padi karuppar.

    So, what do you suggest us to do now? Lets hear your suggestion.

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    1. I don't suggest anything at all Sathyan. The initial point I was trying to drive was that this "kaval deivam", "kula deivam", "grama devathai" worship, originates from Dravidian spirit worshipping, before Hinduism even came to India. This is a tradition primarily found in South India, especially Tamil Nadu where the Dravidian people, culture and traditions of the past are purest in it's form, in comparison to the rest of India. As far as Karuppan is concerned, you only speak of personal, experience, but in Tamil Nadu, the accounts you go do not necessarily align with what others have experienced. You were told 18 karuppanars, but here in TN, there are others that claim that they were told 108. So, I find certain amounts of contradiction between these "encounters". Again, I don't see Ayyanar/Ayyappan and Karuppan any different from other warriors like Muthuraiyar, Karikaalan, Nayakkar and the latter. All were regular human beings that roamed the earth at one point. As I mentioned above, watch the 1996 Tamil movie "Manickam", the movie is a rendition of exactly how earthly beings (do-gooders, robin hoods, activists, freedom fighters, etc) eventually become sub-deities based on Tamil/Dravidian practices.

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  10. All of us are spirit within a body. To put it in better terms, it's called soul or aatma. The soul has 5 bodies, which is soul body, mental body, astral body, pranic body and physical body. While on earth, the soul has all 5 bodies. Upon death, it drops off its physical and pranic body and goes to the Second world (Devalogam) and lives with just soul body, mental body and astral body. Upon departure or expiry here, it drops off its astral and mental body and goes to Sivalogam with just the soul body.

    We are in the First world (earth/ planets). The soul takes several births to evolve. After a soul is purified of all karmas, it attains God realization and becomes jnani. This advanced soul now ends its earthly existence and goes to the Second world. It has attained moksha or liberation. The soul now lives and works in the Devalogam for thousands of years helping other evolving souls in the First world, which is earth or Bhulogam. It is now a Deva. Millions of Devas, Asuras, Gandharvas, Mohinis, Ganas and etc live in the Second world.

    Later, it drops the mental and astral body to go to Sivalogam. It is now a Mahadeva and eventually merges with Shiva altogether. This is the innermost spiritual world where highly evolved souls live in their self effulgent form. Shiva is the primal soul along with approximately 33 million Mahadevas or Gods. This world is a world of light and the Gods who live here are so great that they can change the whole course of the world.

    So, now you see these ancestors could be Devas or later Mahadevas. If they have attained the enlightenment, they are worthy of worship. It is always evolving and some of these super souls do deserve credit. So, Kula devata worship is basic. You can't say that what you learned in standard 1 is wrong when you go to the 6th standard. You evolve and continue learning.

    Well I guess this is not going to be beneficial. And your point of "before Hinduism even came to India" and "karuppar is bandit" actually mesmerizes me. You may only wish to acknowledge the Mahadevas and Lord Shiva but I wish to include all the Devas as well, as they are closer to my earthly plane. You gathered the information from villagers, priests and kodangis. While I regard my personal experience with the Devas are always better than stories from third parties. I don't wish to comment any further and thus this will be my last comment. Lastly, Karuppar is not a bandit, as what you called. The closest is probably Sanggoli Raayan who was a bandit, if im not wrong, which could be mistaken for Sanggili karuppan. All the best in your spiritual journey.

    SATYAME JAYAM.

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  11. Gentlemen
    Its indeed a great honour to have read all the discussions above. Its like watching a movie. A very healthy discussions with no emotional words and intellectual. Bravo.

    The story of Shri Karuppar reminds me of a programme in Makkal Tv aired by Astro. Moondram Kan .. if i m not mistaken. Most episodes were covering village deities. And by watching it i noticed that most deities were "created" by the villagers themself for their sacrifices and good deeds that they have commited for the village and it's people.

    For example, There was a story where a British national, during colonial occupancy, has settled down in a village in TN and has donated his luxurious properties and earnings for the people in that village. Once he died, the people erected a statue and build a temple for him. He becomes one of the God in the village with annual prayers (thiruvizha).
    Not limited to this, but many such deities exist till this day in villages in TN. Discovered this while was watching the programme.
    So when i relate back to Sri Madhurai Veerean and Sri Karuppar Samy, why not the similar stories leads to creation of the 2 deities as well?
    Not sure how many of you are aware, there is a movie, MATHURAI VEEREN (1956), acted by the great MGR, as Mathurai Veeren himself. In that movie, Sanggili Karuppar was potrait as a Bandit. Mathurai Veeren (MV), was assigned to tackle the rising burglaries and robberies in Mathurai. MV found that the leader of the gang is Sanggili Karuppar, and eventually become his main goal to arrest and charge him. However, MV was framed and he was sentenced to be amputated of his right arm and left leg (sorry if its vice versa). However, just before the amputation, he saw SK in the group and immediately charged and killed him. MV ready to be amputated and dies after that. After truth is known, he became the God or deity for people in Mathurai.
    Forgive me Mr. Sathyan, i am not potraying Sanggili Karupar as a bandit but was just narrating the movie as how he was potrayed. However, i believe he was not a bandit and should be a kind of Robin Hood for the poor.
    Forgive me for any words that could be hurting
    Vazgha Valamudan

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  12. @Tijav..
    Vanakkam. As much as I didn't want to pen down anything further, your message came in and I couldn't help but to reply. Nothing to be forgiven as you did nothing wrong. We are all learning and evolving.

    Ok coming to the points you brought up. Yes....as you know, it's a cinema, you need a good guy and a bad guy. No one is gonna question if you put either 1 of these deities as villain, that too back in the 50's. "Manithan theivam aagalam".. there is also a song if you know. In my last reply, I have mentioned the 3 worlds and how we evolve and move. Our (Hindu/Vedic/Sanathana) term of theivam does not restrict to only the Supreme Parabrahman. We tend to use it loosely in a broader way which includes the Devas which are the deities.

    As I have mentioned previously, there are 18 of them in the Karuppar lineage and Sanggili Karuppar (SK) is the last in the hierarchy. The chief, Pathinettam padi Karuppar has gifted the chain to SK. Most of my experiences are with Pathinettam padi Karuppar, Malayala Karuppar, Santhana karuppar and the third in lineage Karuppar (non Veg).

    Let me share my experience with Madhurai Veeran (MV) and Pathinettam padi Karuppar (PPK). I use to visit a small temple in Klang Valley which has MV and Goddess Kaali. I was new here by the way. Once, the regular kodangi had a trance (MV)and we all took turns to get blessing. Then came my turn:

    MV : How did you know about this place?
    Myself : My friends
    MV : Who is your kula thevata?
    Myself : PPK
    MV : Are you doing prayers properly for Him(PPK)?
    Myself : Yes. We pray everyday and Mondays are special for Him and during Ammavasa every month we conduct a bigger prayer at home.

    MV was annoyed and told me
    MV : Who told you it is Ammavasa that is special for karuppan? Ammavasa is only for Goddess Kaali. If you do your prayers wrong, things will go wrong in the family and so on...

    I was a little puzzled this time. Then I took permission to move on and went back home. Months later, we conducted our yearly prayer for PPK back in my hometown with cousins and relatives. My late cousin gets PPK trance. My encounter with Him (PPK).

    Myself : -Took blessing from PPK- and even before I could open my mouth to say some thing;
    PPK : Ni anthe aalayathirku selle vaendam. Avanukku (MV), yemmai patthi ariyathu. Niingal yemmekku seyyum poojaigal seriyanavei.
    He also mentioned a few other things and at one point, He became stern and said;

    PPK : Yemmai yaaru yendru ninaithai. Naan Muni allethu Veeran yendru ninaithayo. Yemmai yaaralum kattu mudiyathu. Vaaku ariyo.

    With due respect to the Muni's and Veeran (MV), these words were not from me but from PPK Himself. Infact, Sree Muniswaran is my other favorite deity.

    So, what I'm trying to point out is SK is different than PPK. Even MV is not aware of the traits and practices of PPK. PPK is certainly not a bandit. Robin Hood!!! Don't think so too. I'm referring to PPK here folks. He believes in righteousness and justice. So the idea of stealing from one doesn't occur. He was born to vanquish the demons and demonology or maanthrigam practices which was rampant in Kerala at that time. His original appearance is fair skinned handsome youth and He got a boon from Goddess Aathi Parasakthi. Agni (fire) is the element that He mastered well and portrays as Agni in His fiercest form. But again, these are my experiences with these Devas and I strongly believe in it.

    All the best in your spiritual journey. Valga valamudan.
    Satyame jayam.

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    1. Vanakam bro. I need some pointers in my seeking for karuppasamy praying methods and other stuff. Do reply to the email. I would like to talk to u personally. My email address: amaru_makaveli4ever@yahoo.com

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    2. Hi sir, healthy talk about spiritual. My journey just begin to find out about him (Lord Karupar) and hope you can help. I'm from Malaysia too. Plz reply to my email jayaponnu84@gmail

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  13. Hi, I would like to know in India have any village name as Chinnalapatti or Singalapatti have 18 padi Karupar as a kula deivam koil? I dreamt this temple and the front entrance indicated as 1947 and its beside the sea...Would be appreciated if you know any information about temple, please do updates. Thanks in advance.

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  14. Can you share some information on Vallanaatu Karuppar

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  15. Someone mentioned that Karuppusamy is from the Kerala region - that is actually correct. Karuppan was an attendant to Ayyanar/Ayyappan (another local hero) and both were from the Kerala region. Also, the way Karuppan is often depicted is like the ancient Kerala warriors with their hair tied to the side in a bun (kondai). In Tamil Nadu, it is known that he has Kerala connection. An ancient warrior from the past.

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  16. Sir, if Lord Karuppar is having "Thirunamam" on forehead, how we should worship - as Lord Rudra or Lord Vishnu?

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    1. Not all Karuppar-s have Tilak marking.Shri Karuppar has tilak because He is of a Vaishnavite Gotra.

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  17. That's why I asked. In our temple, Lord Karuppar has Thirunamam. How we should see the Lord, as Vishnu or Rudra or can we make sankalp as Both.

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  18. Sir, our deity is Sri Kattumadan. We are planning to perform Kumbhabishekam. In the recent meeting the committee members came out with a suggestion to add the term Shivan so that the name of the deity is Sri Kattumadan Shivan. Some members raised objection for not changing the original name as it is reflected in Village Office records. We are in confusion whether to favour the commitee or the offenders. Kindly advise.

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  19. What do you mean by this and how to decide. Could you please explain the above.

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  20. How to know the wish of deity? You mean Thiruvadi Cheetu or any other means?

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    1. yes possible.Any form.Trance can also work but it depends on how rituals are done in the temple

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  21. I tell my view, if it is wrong please correct me. Kattumadan itself is Shiva. If we add Shivan, I feel there is a duplication of name, just like saying Ganapathy Vinayagar Temple or Dhandayuthapani Murugan Temple.

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    1. Everything is the expression of Paramashiva.
      As said,only the deity can reveal.

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  22. I'm asking you how deity will reveal. How we can decide whether to support the decision or oppose?

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  23. Your reply is not clear. You simply said only deity can reveal. An ordinary person cannot understand this philosophical statement. So I asked you how. For that you are repeating the same answer. Anyway thanks for listening my doubts.

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    1. This simply shows how you don't go through my reply - I already said yes to your suggestion of cheetu.I also said you can get it through trance,depending on what type of worship the temple has.

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  24. Sir, you had replied on 25th itself but since it is arranged before 24th, I didn't notice it while scrolling. I'm extremely sorry.

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  25. Swami saranam karuppar saranam30 August 2020 at 04:43

    Ayyan saranam. Happy to see many of his children wanting to know him and get closer to him. My humble request to them is to don't be very obsessed with ayyan's beginning and history. It will bring one into maya letting you think that you know everything about him and that is the truth only. Empty the cup to gain his knowledge. He himself will guide you. Don't worry too much. As for all trance, what I can share is human body can't take his full trance. There are some hierarchy in level of trance which includes feet, knee and more. Arul and marul to become one and close to perfection is another level too. So don't worry much on his starting as we humans don't even know our own starting, end or what's to happen 2mrw itself. There is a saying to shastha, "its my task to bring irumudi only, the details of how are not for me to worry about". So pls, if you want to get close to him, empty ur knowledge n he will be guru to u. Pathinettam padi ayya is real lovable father, mother, guru and God. One really can't see the anger in him a bit also. He will only show his lovable side to his children. And he is very particular in giving offering such as cigar, alcohol etc to him when main gods are placed beside him.Yes ayyan is vegetarian, and he has alot of his boothaganas to give his non veg food to. There are alot of personal experience with him that I can share and there will be no end to it.He cannot be tied, he doesn't only tie bad tantric magic but also he is capable of tying any trancer from all his istha devathas if any trancer misuses their gift. All I can say is ayyan(raja) is toooooooo sweet, lovable.He will take any form his children wants to see him in. Those children who wishes to really surrender to him, for a start take 7 weeks fasting for him every Thursday. Will be even better if you are able to go to his temple. Light a soodam on a lemon in your house prayer alter. Think the life force in the lemon is ayyan himself.If done with pure and sincere heart then end of 7 weeks,you will see and feel the miracle which ayyan showed to me once . But whatever happens, don't be scared.Father is playful. Swami saranam, karuppar saranam.

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  26. I use to get 18 am padi karuppar trance. He is too powerful. He stands for justice. He only comes when someone is with much problems in life and tells solutions to overcome those problems in life. If we worship him truely, he will protect us at all instance. I have personally experienced it. Health issues will be solved in a giffy if you worship him wholehearted. He is the son of kaliamman. He himself has told at one instance. These all my personal experience with 18 am padi karuppar.

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